preview-latex icon proposal

[Ralf Angeli]

preview-latex now supports different icon sizes depending on the size
of the base font used in Emacs. David already mentioned that the
quality of the smaller icons suffered a bit from scaling. So here is
a proposal for a set of new icons which should scale better. The
original was done in SVG format and the icons were exported directly,
so no scaling of bitmaps happened.

Here is a comparison of current and proposed icons:

[David Kastrup]

Post by Ralf Angeli
preview-latex now supports different icon sizes depending on the
size of the base font used in Emacs. David already mentioned that
the quality of the smaller icons suffered a bit from scaling. So
here is a proposal for a set of new icons which should scale better.
The original was done in SVG format and the icons were exported
directly, so no scaling of bitmaps happened.

Well, "no bitmap scaling" does not equivalent "perfect": it just means
that you get no bitmap artifacts, but still you need to rasterize.
Here my comments:

a) the "man in the middle" looks better in your proposal, no question
about it.
b) the black border around the sign is a mistake: at this size, it has
either be so thin that we get heavy digitilization artifacts, in
particular with rounded curves, or so thick that it dominates the
color which should be red.
c) SVG or not: I am afraid that one would still need to edit out
digitization artifacts by hand (aka hinting).

Post by Ralf Angeli
The rounded edges of the new icons make the look a bit smoother and
provide more place for the content of the traffic signs which helps a
bit to preserve clarity even in smaller sizes. David already
expressed his dislike for this roundedness. So if you would like to
see those icons in the next preview-latex release, please speak up.
Of course also if you don't like them but that's not really
necessary. (c; And please keep in mind that the quality of the icons
with the straight triangles could probably be enhanced once somebody
tries to model them in a vector-based program.

The shape is a single triangle drawn with a thick circle as pen.
The METAPOST rendition (alas, no transparency, that would need to get
edited in by hand) would be something like

beginfig(0);
u := 1in;
v := 0.1u;
pickup pencircle scaled v;
filldraw (0.5v,0.5v)---(0.5u,u-0.5v)---(u-0.5v,0.5v)---cycle withcolor white;
draw (0.5v,0.5v)---(0.5u,u-0.5v)---(u-0.5v,0.5v)---cycle withcolor red;
endfig;

and you can edit v for various degrees of roundedness.

Post by Ralf Angeli
I am copying this message to both the AUCTeX and preview-latex
mailing lists as preview-latex will get integrated into AUCTeX
sooner or later and in order to reach a bit more people.

Well, one thing we need to be aware of is that the icons should not
clash with the AUCTeX ones too badly concerning the style.

[Jan-Ake Larsson]

Post by David Kastrup
a) the "man in the middle" looks better in your proposal, no question
about it.
b) the black border around the sign is a mistake: at this size, it has
either be so thin that we get heavy digitilization artifacts, in
particular with rounded curves, or so thick that it dominates the
color which should be red.
c) SVG or not: I am afraid that one would still need to edit out
digitization artifacts by hand (aka hinting).

Agreed. Unfortunately, I have to say, I like the triangular signs
better. And if it is only the question of hand-editing four images,...

/JÅ

[Ralf Angeli]

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson

Post by David Kastrup
a) the "man in the middle" looks better in your proposal, no question
about it.
b) the black border around the sign is a mistake: at this size, it has
either be so thin that we get heavy digitilization artifacts, in
particular with rounded curves, or so thick that it dominates the
color which should be red.
c) SVG or not: I am afraid that one would still need to edit out
digitization artifacts by hand (aka hinting).

Agreed. Unfortunately, I have to say, I like the triangular signs
better. And if it is only the question of hand-editing four images,...

Well, it would not be a problem to export the manikin in various sizes
and insert it into the triangles of the current icons. But those
triangles suffered from scaling as well. For example the 12px and
20px triangles have a somewhat bumpy top. BTW, the 12px size is close
to undoable/useless as it does not allow for enough detail of the icon
and does not stand out between other letters.

[Jan-Ake Larsson]

How about this?
/JÅ

[Frank Küster]

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson
How about this?

I like it better than Ralf's original proposal (because I dislike the
roundedness). However, you cannot see what is inthe 12pt icon unless you
know it; whereas in Ralf's 12pt-icon this was somewhat possible.

Regards, Frank

[Jan-Ake Larsson]

Post by Frank Küster

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson
How about this?

I like it better than Ralf's original proposal (because I dislike the
roundedness). However, you cannot see what is inthe 12pt icon unless you
know it; whereas in Ralf's 12pt-icon this was somewhat possible.

I know.
/JÅ

[Ralf Angeli]

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson
How about this?

I just looked at <URL:http://jimmac.musichall.cz/icons.php> and there
are no icons which are nearly as blurry as my proposal. (Boy, it is
really impressive what that guy can do.) As I don't know how to
disable anti-aliasing when exporting from Inkscape and my own "hinting
capabilities" are somewhat limited, your proposal is probably
preferable. Even though I find the icons look old-fashioned.

Here is nevertheless a version a) with rounded triangles but no black
border and b) with Jan-Åke's triangles and the manikin from my
proposal included:

[David Kastrup]

Post by Ralf Angeli

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson
How about this?

I just looked at <URL:http://jimmac.musichall.cz/icons.php> and there
are no icons which are nearly as blurry as my proposal. (Boy, it is
really impressive what that guy can do.) As I don't know how to
disable anti-aliasing when exporting from Inkscape and my own "hinting
capabilities" are somewhat limited, your proposal is probably
preferable. Even though I find the icons look old-fashioned.
Here is nevertheless a version a) with rounded triangles but no black
border and b) with Jan-Åke's triangles and the manikin from my

By far the best so far in my opinion. Good enough that I am annoyed I
took up the fight with Metapost and Gimp again. Since I put in that
amount of work again, however, it would be frustrating not even to
look at it in case it is reasonably easy for you to fill in the men
(and we still need the exclamation mark, anyway).

Could you do so, so that we may at least see whether my last batch of
triangles might be better or worse than the corrected ones by Jan-Åke?
Since 12 really is very skimpy, I've thrown in a 14x14 version, too.

Thanks,

[Ralf Angeli]

Post by David Kastrup
Could you do so, so that we may at least see whether my last batch of
triangles might be better or worse than the corrected ones by Jan-Åke?
Since 12 really is very skimpy, I've thrown in a 14x14 version, too.

Okay, here it is:

[David Kastrup]

Post by David Kastrup
Could you do so, so that we may at least see whether my last batch of
triangles might be better or worse than the corrected ones by Jan-Åke?
Since 12 really is very skimpy, I've thrown in a 14x14 version, too.

I modified the manikin a bit in order to have its feet aligned with
the pile of sand (or whatever that is). Anyway, Jan-Åke's triangles
provided a bit more space for the manikin. That's why it might look
a little clearer there. Maybe we would get the best results by
putting the last version of the manikin into Jan-Åke's triangles.

For the small sizes, the combination with Jan-Åke's triangles looks
better. However, also for the small sizes I recommend that you don't
confine yourself strictly to the free area in the triangles. For
example, with my triangles there tends to be a half-red bottom line in
the inner area. This can be overwritten partly with the manikin, I
guess, and if it reaches into the rest of the triangle in the upper
areas, this is ol for the low-res icons, too.

With the current complete images, there is no doubt that the 12pixel
version inside of Jan-Åke's triangle is quite better. For the larger
triangles, I am not so sure. The curve in the Jan-Åke versions (well,
actually the 24 pixel version is probably my original) looks somewhat
less elegant than my new triangle proposal IMO. At the lower
resolutions, this becomes irrelevant and mostly just the pixels count.

Another thing to notice is how well the transparency works out (if you
are reading my original message in Gnus, just mark the region with the
icons with the mouse): the proposed new triangles blend well with the
surroundings: I have not been able to check with the others, seeing
them only intransparent.

Anyway, from the last shot you sent, the 12 and 16 pixel versions I'd
give Jan-Åke's version the preference, for the 20 and 24 pixel
version, mine...

[Ralf Angeli]

Post by David Kastrup

I modified the manikin a bit in order to have its feet aligned with
the pile of sand (or whatever that is). Anyway, Jan-Åke's triangles
provided a bit more space for the manikin. That's why it might look
a little clearer there. Maybe we would get the best results by
putting the last version of the manikin into Jan-Åke's triangles.

For the small sizes, the combination with Jan-Åke's triangles looks
better. However, also for the small sizes I recommend that you don't
confine yourself strictly to the free area in the triangles. For
example, with my triangles there tends to be a half-red bottom line in
the inner area. This can be overwritten partly with the manikin, I
guess, and if it reaches into the rest of the triangle in the upper
areas, this is ol for the low-res icons, too.

If you look closely at the last icon in the "DK+man" row, you can see
that I already did this. The result is that the guy looks like he is

Post by David Kastrup
Another thing to notice is how well the transparency works out (if you
are reading my original message in Gnus, just mark the region with the
icons with the mouse): the proposed new triangles blend well with the
surroundings: I have not been able to check with the others, seeing
them only intransparent.

The 24px triangle has a lighter border (haven't checked the others).
Together with the lighter border on the inner side it looks a bit more
plastic(?) and modern. But I guess the lighter border gives the
notion of anti-aliasing only on light backgrounds. A pity that XPM
does not support alpha-channel transparency.

Post by David Kastrup
Anyway, from the last shot you sent, the 12 and 16 pixel versions I'd
give Jan-Åke's version the preference, for the 20 and 24 pixel
version, mine...

I'll try to come up with an enhanced proposal as soon as I find time
for it. Alternatively, if somebody wants to have PNG versions (with
alpha-channel transparency) of the manikin for for experimenting with
it (or even the SVG original), just drop me a mail.

[Miguel Frasson]

Post by David Kastrup
Could you do so, so that we may at least see whether my last batch of
triangles might be better or worse than the corrected ones by Jan-Åke?
Since 12 really is very skimpy, I've thrown in a 14x14 version, too.

I modified the manikin a bit in order to have its feet aligned with
the pile of sand (or whatever that is). Anyway, Jan-Åke's triangles
provided a bit more space for the manikin. That's why it might look a
little clearer there. Maybe we would get the best results by putting
the last version of the manikin into Jan-Åke's triangles.

Hi. I tried once to see if I can put my point.

See what I do in
Loading Image...

The border has a lot less contrast. I didn't work in the manikin, no
time. I cannot do art work now. For those that like, there is a icon
design how-to in the web page of one of the famous icon designers for
gnome. Or Jimmac (?) of Tigert. Look for it. Hinting is explained
there, and I use it a lot, here and when I designed toolbar icons.

Miguel.

[Frank Küster]

Post by Miguel Frasson
Hi. I tried once to see if I can put my point.
See what I do in
http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~frasson/preview-working.png

The manikin looks (read: can be recognized) much better on my screen in
Miguel's icons. Even better than in Jan-Aake's version.

Post by Miguel Frasson
The border has a lot less contrast.

Don't know whether this is the reason.

Regards, Frank

[David Kastrup]

Post by Miguel Frasson

Post by David Kastrup
Could you do so, so that we may at least see whether my last batch of
triangles might be better or worse than the corrected ones by Jan-Åke?
Since 12 really is very skimpy, I've thrown in a 14x14 version, too.

I modified the manikin a bit in order to have its feet aligned with
the pile of sand (or whatever that is). Anyway, Jan-Åke's triangles
provided a bit more space for the manikin. That's why it might look a
little clearer there. Maybe we would get the best results by putting
the last version of the manikin into Jan-Åke's triangles.

Hi. I tried once to see if I can put my point.
See what I do in
http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~frasson/preview-working.png
The border has a lot less contrast. I didn't work in the manikin, no
time. I cannot do art work now. For those that like, there is a icon
design how-to in the web page of one of the famous icon designers for
gnome. Or Jimmac (?) of Tigert. Look for it. Hinting is explained
there, and I use it a lot, here and when I designed toolbar icons.

I hate to say that you are right: the work-in-progress sign is, in
contrast to its meaning on the street, not a warning. The shape and
shading of your proposal looks more appropriate, and the thinner
outline more stylish, also leaving more room for the manikin.
However, the pasty color is just _too_ pale: we need enough saturation
so that this at least looks like a symbol for the red, and so that the
sign does not look like it has its edge filed off. The frame should
not fade into the background that much.

Things are different for the Postscript error icon. It should
definitely be quite more of an eye catcher, so we should keep its red
higher saturated, perhaps even fully so. This will make the icons
less uniform, but the work-in-progress sign is only temporary, and the
error icon should stand out more and is rarely to be seen, anyway. So
they won't be seen together for long usually, anyway.

[Miguel Frasson]

Post by Ralf Angeli

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson
How about this?

I just looked at <URL:http://jimmac.musichall.cz/icons.php> and there
are no icons which are nearly as blurry as my proposal. (Boy, it is
really impressive what that guy can do.) As I don't know how to
disable anti-aliasing when exporting from Inkscape and my own "hinting
capabilities" are somewhat limited, your proposal is probably
preferable. Even though I find the icons look old-fashioned.

They *do* look uglily old-fashioned, and with too much contrast. To my
taste, the few times that I used preview-latex, the red icons mixed with
text (default black on white) distracted me too much. It is nice after
the job is done, but before it is done, one prays for that red triangle to
dissapear as soon as possible. Something with less constrast should be
considered. Why not just the pic of the guy working without the red, or a
clock, or other object resembling work being done.

Miguel.
--
Miguel Vinicius Santini Frasson
http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~frasson



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[David Kastrup]

Post by Ralf Angeli

Post by Jan-Ake Larsson

Post by David Kastrup
a) the "man in the middle" looks better in your proposal, no question
about it.
b) the black border around the sign is a mistake: at this size, it has
either be so thin that we get heavy digitilization artifacts, in
particular with rounded curves, or so thick that it dominates the
color which should be red.
c) SVG or not: I am afraid that one would still need to edit out
digitization artifacts by hand (aka hinting).

Agreed. Unfortunately, I have to say, I like the triangular signs
better. And if it is only the question of hand-editing four images,...

Well, it would not be a problem to export the manikin in various
sizes and insert it into the triangles of the current icons. But
those triangles suffered from scaling as well. For example the 12px
and 20px triangles have a somewhat bumpy top.

"suffered from scaling" is the understatement of the year. I think
that I actually tried avoiding scaling artifacts at some sizes by
doing a copy&paste&trim job, but that was not necessarily a win,
resulting in uneven features.

Ok, can you try working with the following triangles? I've taken
quite a bit of pain getting them right as well as I could manage. If
you fill in your little man, and don't do any dithering or other
nonsense when saving, we should get closer to "good".