CJK in (auctex)I18n

[Reiner Steib]

Hi,

I wonder about why this comment has been removed:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
--- auctex.texi 21 Feb 2005 16:15:35 -0000 1.211
+++ auctex.texi 23 Feb 2005 03:29:16 -0000 1.212
@@ -2512,8 +2512,6 @@
European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
of @TeX{} and Emacs are needed for Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.

-@c FIXME: Is Emacs 21.4 able to deal with CJK?
-
@menu
* European:: Using @AUCTeX{} with European Languages
* Japanese:: Japanese @TeX{}
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

It refers to this text:

,----[ (info "(auctex)I18n") ]
| There are several problems associated with editing non-English TeX with
| GNU Emacs. Modern versions of GNU Emacs and TeX are usable for
| European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
| of TeX and Emacs are needed for Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.
`----

If the CVS version of Emacs(Emacs 22; previously supposed to become
21.4) is usable for CJK, we should mention it there instead of
referring to `special versions of Emacs'. This is why I added this
comment.

Bye, Reiner.

[David Kastrup]

Post by Reiner Steib
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
--- auctex.texi 21 Feb 2005 16:15:35 -0000 1.211
+++ auctex.texi 23 Feb 2005 03:29:16 -0000 1.212
@@ -2512,8 +2512,6 @@
European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
-
@menu
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
,----[ (info "(auctex)I18n") ]
| There are several problems associated with editing non-English TeX with
| GNU Emacs. Modern versions of GNU Emacs and TeX are usable for
| European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
| of TeX and Emacs are needed for Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.
`----
If the CVS version of Emacs(Emacs 22; previously supposed to become
21.4) is usable for CJK, we should mention it there instead of
referring to `special versions of Emacs'. This is why I added this
comment.

AFAIK, Emacs-21.3 is usable for CJK, as well as any XEmacs containing
MULE (though MULE, at least for Unicode, is not officially supported
on the MULE version of XEmacs-21.4, which is not even available for
Windows AFAIR).

In general, "Modern versions" in the above paragraph refers to
Emacs-19 and early Emacs-20 variants, as well as non-MULE compilations
of XEmacs probably also at version 20 or later.

That's what I think I understand from the matter. It may be that
Korean support is behind that of Japanese (MULE was contributed by a
Japanese university project IRC). But I believe in general that
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our Japanese
contributors probably have more of a clue.

Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: David Kastrup <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:24:31 +0100

Post by David Kastrup

Post by Reiner Steib
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
--- auctex.texi 21 Feb 2005 16:15:35 -0000 1.211
+++ auctex.texi 23 Feb 2005 03:29:16 -0000 1.212
@@ -2512,8 +2512,6 @@
European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
-
@menu
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
,----[ (info "(auctex)I18n") ]
| There are several problems associated with editing non-English TeX with
| GNU Emacs. Modern versions of GNU Emacs and TeX are usable for
| European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based languages, but special versions
| of TeX and Emacs are needed for Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.
`----
If the CVS version of Emacs(Emacs 22; previously supposed to become
21.4) is usable for CJK, we should mention it there instead of
referring to `special versions of Emacs'. This is why I added this
comment.

AFAIK, Emacs-21.3 is usable for CJK, as well as any XEmacs containing
MULE (though MULE, at least for Unicode, is not officially supported
on the MULE version of XEmacs-21.4, which is not even available for
Windows AFAIR).

Hi, I'm Japanese contributor.

`Mule' is an abbreviation of MULtilingual Enhancement of GNU
EMACS. In this case, `multilingual' means not only European
language, but also CJK, Arabic, Tibetan, Hebrew, etc... See
HELLO by `C-h h' if you are using FSF Emacs, and you can see
lots of supported languages; may be you need some fonts ;).

FSF Emacs supports mule from version 20.1, even early
Emacs20 have something wrong with Japanese. Anyway, Emacs21
and CVS Emacs supports Mule, and it works fine.

Unfortunately, XEmacs does not support mule by default, it
should be configured with `--with-mule' for mule support.

Post by David Kastrup
In general, "Modern versions" in the above paragraph refers to
Emacs-19 and early Emacs-20 variants, as well as non-MULE compilations
of XEmacs probably also at version 20 or later.

I saw the above paragraph in auc-tex.texi in AUCTeX 9.10g,
which is released on 1999-08-20. Emacs 20.3 was the latest,
at that time. It's all in the past. AUCTeX works with
Emacs21 or later!

Post by David Kastrup
That's what I think I understand from the matter. It may be that
Korean support is behind that of Japanese (MULE was contributed by a
Japanese university project IRC). But I believe in general that
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our Japanese
contributors probably have more of a clue.
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

I agree. I'll fix the document.

---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Masayuki Ataka <***@yukawa.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:30:41 +0900 (JST)

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by David Kastrup
That's what I think I understand from the matter. It may be that
Korean support is behind that of Japanese (MULE was contributed by a
Japanese university project IRC). But I believe in general that
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our Japanese
contributors probably have more of a clue.
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

I agree. I'll fix the document.

Here is the revised draft.

| There are several problems associated with editing non-English @TeX{}
| with GNU Emacs. @TeX{} are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek)
| based languages.

I'm not sure `XEmacs --without-mule' is usable for European
based languages.

| For @acronym{CJK} (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) language,
| @acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs} supported Emacsen
| are needed. @acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs} is
| part of GNU Emacs from Emacs 20; XEmacs should be configured with
| @samp{--with-mule} option. Special versions of @TeX{} are needed for
| @acronym{CJK}; ASCII ***@TeX{} and NTT ***@TeX{} for Japanese; ***@LaTeX{} and
| ***@TeX{} for Korean; and @acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for
| @acronym{CJK}.

How does Chinese use TeX? Is there TeX specialized for Chinese?

I installed and tried CJK-LaTeX yesterday. I think that the
week point is lack of information to CJK-LaTeX. It works with
Japanese, but I couldn't find how to change font family. I
know this ML is not for TeX and CJK-LaTeX. The point is ,at
the present point, CJK-LaTeX can not substitute pTeX and jTeX.

AFAIK, There is Unicode based TeX (Omega and Lambda). But I
don't knwo how to run it on my computer. Where to find them
and their information. Is it still continued the development?

Comments are welcome.

best,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[David Kastrup]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:30:41 +0900 (JST)

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by David Kastrup
That's what I think I understand from the matter. It may be that
Korean support is behind that of Japanese (MULE was contributed by a
Japanese university project IRC). But I believe in general that
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our Japanese
contributors probably have more of a clue.
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

I agree. I'll fix the document.

Here is the revised draft.
| There are several problems associated with editing non-English
| Cyrillic, Greek) based languages.
I'm not sure `XEmacs --without-mule' is usable for European
based languages.

It is usable for 8bit encodings quite well, so it can cater for most
of the European 8bit character sets, though only one at a time. That
is the reason that the unconditional inclusion of MULE into Emacs-20
historically caused quite a few people to switch to XEmacs since they
would not want to be exposed to the early instabilities and
performance issues of MULE without apparent need.

With utf-8 having become as widespread as it is nowadays, MULE is a
good thing to have in a well-tested state.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
| GNU Emacs} is part of GNU Emacs from Emacs 20; XEmacs should be
How does Chinese use TeX? Is there TeX specialized for Chinese?

No idea.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I installed and tried CJK-LaTeX yesterday. I think that the week
point is lack of information to CJK-LaTeX. It works with Japanese,
but I couldn't find how to change font family. I know this ML is
not for TeX and CJK-LaTeX. The point is ,at the present point,
CJK-LaTeX can not substitute pTeX and jTeX.

It could well be that CJK-LaTeX is mostly intended for critical work:
papers in English or other languages written by scholars _about_ works
in Chinese. I also seem to remember that there is a special Emacs
mode by Werner Lemberg for inputting the CJK-LaTeX transcriptions.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
AFAIK, There is Unicode based TeX (Omega and Lambda). But I don't
knwo how to run it on my computer. Where to find them and their
information. Is it still continued the development?

Omega is by now more or less developed by two separate small teams led
by the original developers with one or two programmers on each team.
Their interests have diverged, and in particular John Plaice,
responsible for most of the code base, has pretty much lost interest.
However, _both_ John and Yannis are hardly renowned for keeping the
public involved, so the development of Omega, though leading to
interesting talks at TeX conferences at times, is mostly uninteresting
to the community.

There are format variants built on earlier released versions, and
Giuseppe Bilotta maintains Aleph, a reasonably stable branch of Omega
with eTeX extensions.

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: David Kastrup <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:50:02 +0100

Post by David Kastrup

Post by Reiner Steib
| There are several problems associated with editing non-English
| Cyrillic, Greek) based languages.
I'm not sure `XEmacs --without-mule' is usable for European
based languages.

It is usable for 8bit encodings quite well, so it can cater for most
of the European 8bit character sets, though only one at a time. That
is the reason that the unconditional inclusion of MULE into Emacs-20

Thank you for your information. So, both of recent Emacs and
XEmacs have no problem for editing European Languages. Above
text is unsuitable...

How about this:

| @TeX{} and Emacs are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic,
| Greek) based languages. Some @LaTeX{} packages and EmacsLisp
| are available for easy typesetting and editing European
| languages.

Post by David Kastrup

Post by Reiner Steib
| GNU Emacs} is part of GNU Emacs from Emacs 20; XEmacs should be
How does Chinese use TeX? Is there TeX specialized for Chinese?

No idea.

Please, Chinese user, give us an information.

Post by David Kastrup

Post by Reiner Steib
I installed and tried CJK-LaTeX yesterday. I think that the week
point is lack of information to CJK-LaTeX. It works with Japanese,
but I couldn't find how to change font family. I know this ML is
not for TeX and CJK-LaTeX. The point is ,at the present point,
CJK-LaTeX can not substitute pTeX and jTeX.

papers in English or other languages written by scholars _about_ works
in Chinese. I also seem to remember that there is a special Emacs
mode by Werner Lemberg for inputting the CJK-LaTeX transcriptions.

And CJK-LaTeX is a powerful tool (and may be only solution) for
writing a text mixed Chinese, Japanese and Korean.

Post by David Kastrup

Post by Reiner Steib
AFAIK, There is Unicode based TeX (Omega and Lambda). But I don't
knwo how to run it on my computer. Where to find them and their
information. Is it still continued the development?

Omega is by now more or less developed by two separate small teams led
by the original developers with one or two programmers on each team.
Their interests have diverged, and in particular John Plaice,
responsible for most of the code base, has pretty much lost interest.
However, _both_ John and Yannis are hardly renowned for keeping the
public involved, so the development of Omega, though leading to
interesting talks at TeX conferences at times, is mostly uninteresting
to the community.
There are format variants built on earlier released versions, and
Giuseppe Bilotta maintains Aleph, a reasonably stable branch of Omega
with eTeX extensions.

Okay. Currently, we need not refer to Omaga and Aleph.

---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Werner LEMBERG]

Post by David Kastrup
It could well be that CJK-LaTeX is mostly intended for critical
work: papers in English or other languages written by scholars
_about_ works in Chinese.

It can be used quite successfully for native Chinese and Korean also
-- the very problem is Japanese due to its complicated rules how
Kanji, Kana, and Western scripts have to interact (this mainly affects
the whitespace at a script border). I can imagine that similar
problems exist for Chinese, but neither the Taiwanese government nor
Mainland Chinese have defined a standard how to do that.

Post by David Kastrup
I also seem to remember that there is a special Emacs mode by Werner
Lemberg for inputting the CJK-LaTeX transcriptions.

This isn't correct. My Emacs mode (in cjk-enc.el) is an output filter
which converts the contents of a multilingual Emacs buffer into
something which can be directly processed by LaTeX.

Or do you refer to something different?


Werner

[David Kastrup]

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by David Kastrup
I also seem to remember that there is a special Emacs mode by
Werner Lemberg for inputting the CJK-LaTeX transcriptions.

This isn't correct. My Emacs mode (in cjk-enc.el) is an output
filter which converts the contents of a multilingual Emacs buffer
into something which can be directly processed by LaTeX.
Or do you refer to something different?

I meant, for _outputting_ the CJK-LaTeX transcriptions. Sorry, did
not get too much sleep.

[Werner LEMBERG]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
How does Chinese use TeX? Is there TeX specialized for Chinese?

There are special Chinese macro packages especially for LaTeX (zwtex
is an example, IIRC). Since the documentation is primarily in Chinese
-- and my Chinese is rudimentary only -- I haven't further
investigated how to use it.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I installed and tried CJK-LaTeX yesterday. I think that the week
point is lack of information to CJK-LaTeX.

What exactly do you mean? You might try the development version from
cjk.ffii.org which will eventually become version 4.5.3 soon, I hope.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
It works with Japanese, but I couldn't find how to change font
family.

Have a look at the JIS.tex example file:

\begin{CJK*}[dnp]{JIS}{min}

This is JIS input encoding for fonts with DNP font encoding, using
font family `min' (this uses the c42min.fd font definition file).

If you want to use the cjk-enc.el file, look at the CJKbabel.tex
example file:

\CJKfontenc{JIS}{dnp}
\CJKencfamily[dnp]{JIS}{min}

The first command sets DNP font encoding as the default for Japanese,
and the second command selects the `min' font as the default font for
Japanese in DNP font encoding.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
The point is, at the present point, CJK-LaTeX can not substitute
pTeX and jTeX.

This was never the intention. CJK-LaTeX is primarily a means to write
documents in a western language (or any other script like Cyrillic
which is supported `natively' within LaTeX) which contains CJK snippets.


Werner

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Werner LEMBERG <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:25:54 +0100 (CET)

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
How does Chinese use TeX? Is there TeX specialized for Chinese?

There are special Chinese macro packages especially for LaTeX (zwtex
is an example, IIRC).

Thank you.

Post by Werner LEMBERG
Since the documentation is primarily in Chinese
-- and my Chinese is rudimentary only -- I haven't further
investigated how to use it.

I've found cTeX and ChinaTeX just a few hours ago, but their
documentation are also written in Chinese.

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I installed and tried CJK-LaTeX yesterday. I think that the week
point is lack of information to CJK-LaTeX.

What exactly do you mean? You might try the development version from
cjk.ffii.org which will eventually become version 4.5.3 soon, I hope.

Sorry! I tried CJK-LaTeX 4.5.2. I wanted to say that Japanese
document is too few. So It is a charange for Japanese TeX
users, who use pTeX or jTeX, to install and use CJK-LaTeX.

(I changed appearance order, sorry)

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
The point is, at the present point, CJK-LaTeX can not substitute
pTeX and jTeX.

This was never the intention. CJK-LaTeX is primarily a means to write
documents in a western language (or any other script like Cyrillic
which is supported `natively' within LaTeX) which contains CJK snippets.

I understand. And, CJK-LaTeX has a advantage for Japanese when
they use Chinese or Korean chars in Japanese text ;)

I wanted to save pTeX and jTeX from regarding as an unnecessary
tool because there exists CJK-LaTeX.

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
It works with Japanese, but I couldn't find how to change font
family.

\begin{CJK*}[dnp]{JIS}{min}
This is JIS input encoding for fonts with DNP font encoding, using
font family `min' (this uses the c42min.fd font definition file).
If you want to use the cjk-enc.el file, look at the CJKbabel.tex
\CJKfontenc{JIS}{dnp}
\CJKencfamily[dnp]{JIS}{min}
The first command sets DNP font encoding as the default for Japanese,
and the second command selects the `min' font as the default font for
Japanese in DNP font encoding.

Thank you. But I installed `Bitstream Cyberbit' font
ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/communicator/extras/fonts/windows/Cyberbit.ZIP
in order to display Japanese chars, so that I can't try your
solution, at once. I will try later.

regards,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Werner LEMBERG]

Post by David Kastrup
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our
Japanese contributors probably have more of a clue.
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

Yes. Emacs > 21.3 works just fine for CJK languages.


Werner

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Werner LEMBERG <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:30:24 +0100 (CET)

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by David Kastrup
"usable for CJK" just means MULE. I am copying Werner Lemberg with
this message, maybe he knows more about it. Also some of our
Japanese contributors probably have more of a clue.
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

Yes. Emacs > 21.3 works just fine for CJK languages.

You mean Emacs < 22.1 does not support UNICODE CJK chars? If
so, I agree with you. UNICODE support of Emacs < 22.1 is
limited. Maybe we should put some words for unicode.

I put the final(?) revised draft at the end of this mail.

Comments and discussions are welcome.

I'll commit this in a few days.

best,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)


@node I18n
@chapter Internationalization
@cindex Internationalization
@cindex Character set
@cindex National letters
@cindex CJK language
@cindex MULE
@cindex ***@TeX
@cindex ***@LaTeX
@cindex ***@TeX
@cindex ASCII ***@TeX
@cindex ***@TeX
@cindex NTT ***@TeX
@cindex CJK-@LaTeX
@cindex UNICODE
@cindex MULE-UCS

@TeX{} and Emacs are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based
languages. Some @LaTeX{} packages and EmacsLisp are available for easy
typesetting and editing European languages.

For @acronym{CJK} (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) language,
@acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs} supported Emacsen
are needed. @acronym{MULE} is part of GNU Emacs from Emacs 20; XEmacs
should be configured with @samp{--with-mule} option. Special versions
of @TeX{} are needed for @acronym{CJK} languages; ASCII ***@TeX{} and NTT
***@TeX{} for Japanese; ***@LaTeX{} and ***@TeX{} for Korean; and
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for @acronym{CJK}.

Note that UNICODE is not fully supported in Emacs 21 and XEmacs; CJK
characters are not usable. Use MULE-UCS EmacsLisp package or Emacs 22
(not available).

@c FIXME Is there special version of TeX for Chinese?

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Masayuki Ataka <***@milk.freemail.ne.jp>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:07:18 +0900 (JST)

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I put the final(?) revised draft at the end of this mail.

(snip)

Post by Masayuki Ataka
@c FIXME Is there special version of TeX for Chinese?

Ikumi Keita gave me an information of CTeX and ChinaTeX.
http://www.ctex.org/

But, I can't read Chinese.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for @acronym{CJK}.

Anyway I changed the draft as below.

<<EOF
of @TeX{} are needed for @acronym{CJK} languages; ***@TeX{} and
***@TeX{} for Chinese; ASCII ***@TeX{} and NTT ***@TeX{} for Japanese;
***@LaTeX{} and ***@TeX{} for Korean; and @acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for
@acronym{CJK}.

@c FIXME We need more information for CTeX, ChinaTeX, KTeX, and HLaTeX.
EOF

bye,
---
Masayuki Ataka (Japan).

[Werner LEMBERG]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
You mean Emacs < 22.1 does not support UNICODE CJK chars? If
so, I agree with you. UNICODE support of Emacs < 22.1 is
limited. Maybe we should put some words for unicode.

Regarding my cjk-enc.el mode I need the many different mule encodings
instead of Unicode.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for @acronym{CJK}.

I would rather say `and CJK-LaTeX for supporting multiple CJK scripts
within a single document'.


Werner

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Werner LEMBERG <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:06:14 +0100 (CET)

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by David Kastrup
Basically, I guess the manual entry should be revised.

Yes. Emacs > 21.3 works just fine for CJK languages.

You mean Emacs < 22.1 does not support UNICODE CJK chars? If
so, I agree with you. UNICODE support of Emacs < 22.1 is
limited. Maybe we should put some words for unicode.

Regarding my cjk-enc.el mode I need the many different mule encodings
instead of Unicode.

I didn't catch your aim of `JUST' in:
Emacs > 21.3 works just fine for CJK languages.
# I'm poor at English.

You wanted to say that `(Emacs > 21.3) is needed for CJK languages'?
Or you wanted to just say that `Emacs 21.3 works fine for CJK languages'?

I think (Emacs > 20) works fine for CJK languages
if UNICODE with CJK are not required.

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package for @acronym{CJK}.

I would rather say `and CJK-LaTeX for supporting multiple CJK scripts
within a single document'.

Good.
I changed `CJK-LaTeX' to `CKJ-LaTeX package', because
jTeX, pTeX, kTeX, etc... are not package, but systems.

thanks,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Masayuki Ataka]

I checked in auctex.texi, including revised section `I18n'.

thanks,
---
Masayuki Ataka (japan)

[David Kastrup]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I checked in auctex.texi, including revised section `I18n'.

Thank you.

[Reiner Steib]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I checked in auctex.texi, including revised section `I18n'.

Thanks. I fixed some markup errors which prevented successful built.
Maybe you could try if "cd doc; make" succeeds before committing. ;-)

Bye, Reiner.

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+***@imap.cc>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:11:06 +0100

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I checked in auctex.texi, including revised section `I18n'.

Thanks. I fixed some markup errors which prevented successful built.
Maybe you could try if "cd doc; make" succeeds before committing. ;-)

Thank you.
is displayed as below, in both of info and dvi:
For CJK (Chinese)

because Texinfo uses the comma as a special character in one
uncommon context.

Texinfo 4.7+ have @comma{} command for such a case. Above line
will be
and we can get correct output.
For CJK (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean)

But, I'm afraid that the requirement of version 4.7 or higher
is radical.

Which version of Texinfo do we support?

--
Masayuki Ataka (Japan)

[Reiner Steib]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
For CJK (Chinese)
because Texinfo uses the comma as a special character in one
uncommon context.

Oops. It looked okay (but not very nice: no brackets) for me in the
DVI file.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
will be
and we can get correct output.
For CJK (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean)

Maybe we should better revert it to the previous version.

Bye, Reiner.

[Reiner Steib]

[...]

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka
and we can get correct output.
For CJK (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean)

Maybe we should better revert it to the previous version.

Additionally, I'd suggest to change the paragraphs as follows[1]:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
@TeX{} and Emacs are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based
languages. Some @LaTeX{} and EmacsLisp packages are available for easy
typesetting and editing documents in European languages.

For @acronym{CJK} (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) languages, Emacs or
XEmacs with @acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs}
support is required. @acronym{MULE} is part of Emacs by default since
Emacs 20. XEmacs has to be configured with the @samp{--with-mule}
option. Special versions of @TeX{} are needed for @acronym{CJK}
languages: ***@TeX{} and ***@TeX{} for Chinese, ASCII ***@TeX{} and NTT
***@TeX{} for Japanese, ***@LaTeX{} and ***@TeX{} for Korean. The
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package is required for supporting multiple
@acronym{CJK} scripts within a single document.

Note that Unicode is not fully supported in Emacs 21 and XEmacs 21.
@acronym{CJK} characters are not usable. Please use the
@acronym{MULE}-@acronym{UCS} EmacsLisp package or Emacs 22 (not released
yet) if you need @acronym{CJK}.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I think this is slightly more clear than before. Do you agree?

Thanks for revising that node!

Bye, Reiner.

[1] Info output:

,----[ (info "(auctex)I18n") ]
| TeX and Emacs are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based
| languages. Some LaTeX and EmacsLisp packages are available for easy
| typesetting and editing documents in European languages.
|
| For CJK (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) languages, Emacs or XEmacs
| with MULE (MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs) support is required.
| MULE is part of Emacs by default since Emacs 20. XEmacs has to be
| configured with the `--with-mule' option. Special versions of TeX are
| needed for CJK languages: CTeX and ChinaTeX for Chinese, ASCII pTeX and
| NTT jTeX for Japanese, HLaTeX and kTeX for Korean. The CJK-LaTeX
| package is required for supporting multiple CJK scripts within a single
| document.
|
| Note that Unicode is not fully supported in Emacs 21 and XEmacs 21.
| CJK characters are not usable. Please use the MULE-UCS EmacsLisp
| package or Emacs 22 (not released yet) if you need CJK.
`----

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+***@imap.cc>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:19:17 +0100

Post by Reiner Steib
[...]

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka
and we can get correct output.
For CJK (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean)

Maybe we should better revert it to the previous version.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
@TeX{} and Emacs are usable for European (Latin, Cyrillic, Greek) based
typesetting and editing documents in European languages.
@acronym{CJK}-@LaTeX{} package is required for supporting multiple
@acronym{CJK} scripts within a single document.
Note that Unicode is not fully supported in Emacs 21 and XEmacs 21.
@acronym{CJK} characters are not usable. Please use the
@acronym{MULE}-@acronym{UCS} EmacsLisp package or Emacs 22 (not released
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
I think this is slightly more clear than before. Do you agree?

I agree. Please check in.

Two notes.

(1) Acronym
Texinfo NEWS:
4.7 (9 April 2004)
. @acronym accepts an optional argument for the meaning of the acronym.

Work with Texinfo under 4.7?
(2) Comment
How about adding the comment for document writer.
Later, when Texinfo 4.8 becomes not radical, this comment will help us.

@c FIXME Some Texinfo macros are not used because they are radical now (2005-03-05).
@c @acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs}
@c -> @abbr{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs}
@c @acronym{CJK} (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean)
@c -> @acronym{CJK, ***@comma{} ***@comma{} and Korean}

bye,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Reiner Steib]

[...]

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
I think this is slightly more clear than before. Do you agree?

I agree. Please check in.

Done.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
(1) Acronym
4.7 (9 April 2004)
Work with Texinfo under 4.7?

| XEmacs with @acronym{MULE, MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs}

Probably not. I didn't check. Changed to...

| XEmacs with @acronym{MULE} (MULtilingual Enhancement to GNU Emacs)

... which looks nicer in DVI anyhow.

The INSTALL file doesn't mention an explicit version number:

,----[ INSTALL ]
| * The `texinfo' package
|
| This is needed for building the documentation. If you don't have
| this, or you have a too old version of it (try building and you'll
| find out), you may download a separate tar file with the prebuilt
| documentation from Savannah and install it over the main unpacked
| tar archive.
`----

Post by Masayuki Ataka
(2) Comment
How about adding the comment for document writer.
Later, when Texinfo 4.8 becomes not radical, this comment will help us.

Good idea. I have added something similar.

BTW: It's not necessary to Cc me. If you want to Cc me, using the
Reply-To is sufficient (not Reply-To + From). :-)

Bye, Reiner.

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+***@imap.cc>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:02:28 +0100

Post by Reiner Steib
[...]

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
I think this is slightly more clear than before. Do you agree?

I agree. Please check in.

Done.

Thank you.

Post by Reiner Steib
... which looks nicer in DVI anyhow.

@acronym should be used for marking up the meaning of text,
not for appearances. @acronym{foo, bar} and @abbr{foo, bar}
will be converted into <acronym title="bar">foo</acronym> and
<abbr title="bar">foo</abbr> in HTML output, respectively.

Currently, @abbr and second argument of @acronym are radical,
so that they are not used for original usage.

Post by Reiner Steib
,----[ INSTALL ]
| * The `texinfo' package
|
| This is needed for building the documentation. If you don't have
| this, or you have a too old version of it (try building and you'll
| find out), you may download a separate tar file with the prebuilt
| documentation from Savannah and install it over the main unpacked
| tar archive.
`----

Yes, I want explicit version number.

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka
(2) Comment
How about adding the comment for document writer.
Later, when Texinfo 4.8 becomes not radical, this comment will help us.

Good idea. I have added something similar.

Thanks.

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Some Texinfo macros are not used because the require quite recent

^^^they?

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Second arg of @acronym is available with 4.7, @abbr and @comma are
@c available in 4.8.

@comma is available in 4.7.

Post by Reiner Steib
BTW: It's not necessary to Cc me. If you want to Cc me, using the
Reply-To is sufficient (not Reply-To + From). :-)

Sorry for duplicated mails.

bye,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Reiner Steib]

[...]

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
... which looks nicer in DVI anyhow.

@acronym should be used for marking up the meaning of text,
will be converted into <acronym title="bar">foo</acronym> and
<abbr title="bar">foo</abbr> in HTML output, respectively.

Does this mean that "bar" is only visible on mouse-over in the
browser? I would prefer to have some markup (e.g. for MULE and CJK)
where the explanation is always visible in the output.

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
,----[ INSTALL ]
| * The `texinfo' package
|
| This is needed for building the documentation. If you don't have
| this, or you have a too old version of it (try building and you'll

[...]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
Yes, I want explicit version number.

Maybe it is better to leave it as it is now and check again after
preview-latex is included?

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Some Texinfo macros are not used because the require quite recent

^^^they?

Yes.

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Second arg of @acronym is available with 4.7, @abbr and @comma are
@c available in 4.8.

@comma is available in 4.7.

Could you please install the corrections? I don't have CVS access
during this week-end.

Bye, Reiner.

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+***@imap.cc>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:39:47 +0100
(snip)

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka
@acronym should be used for marking up the meaning of text,
will be converted into <acronym title="bar">foo</acronym> and
<abbr title="bar">foo</abbr> in HTML output, respectively.

Does this mean that "bar" is only visible on mouse-over in the
browser? I would prefer to have some markup (e.g. for MULE and CJK)
where the explanation is always visible in the output.

HTML does not specify the appearances, you know. There's no
way to know what they looks like on somebody's browser.

I only see
MULE
from HTML input:
<abbr title="MULtilingual Enhancement of GNU EMACS">MULE</abbr>
and the contents of title attribute is shown as pop-up text, on
my browser (firefox 1.0)

With CSS, as below
abbr:after {content: " (" attr(title) ")"; }
I get the following output
MULE (MULtilingual Enhancement of GNU EMACS)

Do you like this CSS?

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
,----[ INSTALL ]
| * The `texinfo' package
|
| This is needed for building the documentation. If you don't have
| this, or you have a too old version of it (try building and you'll

[...]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
Yes, I want explicit version number.

Maybe it is better to leave it as it is now and check again after
preview-latex is included?

OK.

Post by Reiner Steib

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Some Texinfo macros are not used because the require quite recent

^^^they?

Yes.

Post by Masayuki Ataka

Post by Reiner Steib
@c Second arg of @acronym is available with 4.7, @abbr and @comma are
@c available in 4.8.

@comma is available in 4.7.

Could you please install the corrections? I don't have CVS access
during this week-end.

Done.

best,
---
email: ***@milk.freemail.ne.jp
Name:: Masayuki Ataka // (Japan)

[Werner LEMBERG]

Post by Masayuki Ataka
You wanted to say that `(Emacs > 21.3) is needed for CJK languages'?
Or you wanted to just say that `Emacs 21.3 works fine for CJK
languages'?

The latter.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I think (Emacs > 20) works fine for CJK languages if UNICODE with
CJK are not required.

Yes.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I changed `CJK-LaTeX' to `CKJ-LaTeX package', because jTeX, pTeX,
kTeX, etc... are not package, but systems.

Thanks.


Werner

[Masayuki Ataka]

From: Werner LEMBERG <***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: CJK in (auctex)I18n
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:49:23 +0100 (CET)

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
You wanted to say that `(Emacs > 21.3) is needed for CJK languages'?
Or you wanted to just say that `Emacs 21.3 works fine for CJK languages'?

The latter.

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I think (Emacs > 20) works fine for CJK languages if UNICODE with
CJK are not required.

Yes.

Thank you. I'm happy to hear that.

Post by Werner LEMBERG

Post by Masayuki Ataka
I changed `CJK-LaTeX' to `CKJ-LaTeX package', because jTeX, pTeX,
kTeX, etc... are not package, but systems.

Thanks.

Well, kTeX and HLaTeX seems a macro package to me...
I can't investigate, any more. Sorry.

--
Masayuki ataka (Japan)